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so uh good afternoon good morning

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everyone wherever you happen to be um

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i'm andy burnett and i am pleased to be

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hosting the next in our series of uh

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nasa astrobiology road mapping webinars

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um and today

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the the lineup of presenters is possibly

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changing even as we speak but we've

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definitely got uh aaron goldman and

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we've got andy ellington and i'm hoping

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that we may have nick hud and i'm going

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just say again eric yeah nick head

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signed in now oh there you go you see

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even as i said even as we spoke and

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there he is i was actually on the phone

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i was trying to find that start sharing

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button yeah

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what on the phone

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yeah

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um

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okay so in that case we have a full

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compliment we've also got michael new

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from nasa's astro biology group

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and my colleague tim morley over on my

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right who is going to be monitoring our

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chat window and we're going to do a

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process uh of sort of shunting your

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questions from chat into the live notes

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ah there we go make sure you got your

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camera working that's great

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um

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and

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the basic process just in case you

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weren't here for the first one that we

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held last week which by the way is

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available on youtube and you can get to

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it straight from the front of the

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website

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basic process is we're

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we're going to

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uh have an opportunity for the panelists

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to talk about some of the questions that

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the nasa team

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have identified as being particularly

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interesting for them in terms of the

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development of this road mapping

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framework

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and then after we've been through that

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which might run for 20 minutes half an

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hour we're going to throw it open to

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everyone who's online with us um for q a

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and then just before we wrap up i'm

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going to encourage everyone to go to the

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astrobiologyfuture.org website where

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we've taken a number of the questions

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that have been identified more than

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we'll be covering in this session and

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we've dropped them straight in as

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discussion threads and i'll make sure to

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show you that before we end up so we'd

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very much like to encourage the

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conversation because everything that you

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discuss prior to the workshop helps to

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shape

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the the agenda for the workshop

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so um with that michael do you want to

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set context for a moment on on this

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particular work on this webinar

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sure absolutely thank you

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so i'm michael new i'm the astrobiology

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discipline scientist at nasa

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headquarters some of you know me

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personally some of you only gotten

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emails from me and many of you probably

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have no idea who i am

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um

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we at nasa started

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communicating with the community about

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getting this roadmap workshop going

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a little while ago and we're trying to

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cast as broad a net as possible in order

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to really find the compelling

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that will guide astrobiology for the

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next decade the astrobiology roadmap is

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something we

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create once a decade and we update it

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once every five years

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in order to guide the field as a whole

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then when i say that i mean not just

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guide what people propose to nasa but

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also what um nasa is interested in

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funding as well

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so we're trying to cast as wide a net as

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possible we want

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the most uh creative thoughts and

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innovation innovative ideas we can get

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out of this there's always time later on

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to um we know that large list down and

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say hey

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maybe we can't do this in 10 years or

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really that's important not

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but in the between there's a lot of

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ideas that we want to capture and we

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want to use and so this is the start of

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the op

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this is the start

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of looking into these questions for the

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particular area of prebiotic chemistry

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we define generally prebiotic chemistry

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as the chemistry that happens on a

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planetary surface so you have to have

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planets first

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and that leads from

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the basic chemistry on a planetary

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surface all the way up to the

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origin of life

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and some of the early chemical evolution

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of that life

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now we can argue a lot about the

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definition of life i don't want to do

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that on this telecon

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and we can

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argue about where we draw the line at

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okay this is prebiotic chemistry now we

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have life and we're going elsewhere but

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for now those are kinds of the

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parameters

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so we're interested in the earliest

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chemical reactions that produce

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biomolecules

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we're interested in what those

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biomolecules were could have been

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looking back in time using both geology

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and biology we can maybe see some vague

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shadowy outlines of what early life was

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like and we'd like to explore that we'd

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also like to understand the how the

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environmental and chemical parameters of

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the early earth or elsewhere

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could have shaped

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what we see now so that's kind of

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roughly the playing field

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and um nasa is mostly stepping back

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we want this to be community-led

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community-driven um so i'll be here but

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you shouldn't hear much from me

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thanks

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okay thank you

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um

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let me just uh build on one point

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michael was saying about really wanting

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to hear from the whole community you'll

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find when we go to uh the web discussion

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forum um that there are some headings on

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there and we got some feedback from last

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week

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that uh people felt a little bit

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reluctant to start discussions when they

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thought that

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they were there on their own and

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it was this initial

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concern about being first person at the

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party so we've put in some questions

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which uh the panelists had in fact uh

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developed

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and we just uh we strongly encourage you

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to chip in your thoughts because it

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really is very important that we hear

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from all the different points of view

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and we're also looking uh at

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sometime this week and we'll send out a

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notice about it uh inviting people to

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come and have just an online chat based

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discussion so using the same adobe

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connect pro

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but if you find you prefer to bounce

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ideas around when there are other people

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online then we'll see if we can schedule

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that so we're going to try and use as

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many different ways as we can and if you

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have any technical questions please go

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onto the website just fill in a support

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ticket and we will get back to you as

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soon as possible

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so um having said that let me move on to

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our panelists and um and just get some

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introductions now

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i'm hoping that andy is still here even

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though he's the camera you are in that

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case um

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andy tell us just uh for the people who

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don't know you who are you where are you

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from why are you interested in this

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uh okay i'm andy lincoln university of

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texas at austin um i've been on the

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periphery of the origins community for a

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long time just like i've been on the

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periphery

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of other communities i maintain a great

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interest in origins and a healthy

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disrespect for most everything that goes

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and moving in that case a natural segue

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okay hi i'm nick hud

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i'm a nucleic acid

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biophysical chemist and my lab is is

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heavily involved in origin research in

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particular

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the origin of nucleic acids and

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great thank you aaron

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i'm aaron goldman i'm a computational

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biologist and so i'm interested in

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looking for those ancient signatures of

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prebiotic and early evolution

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brilliant

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okay um

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what i'm going to do now hopefully this

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will advance my slide

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just try that one more time there we go

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um

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i'm not going to read this out but the

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the nasa team developed just a short

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rubric saying what they meant by

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prebiotic evolution you will find that

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that's also on the website in the event

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itself we've just popped that in there

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well what we did prior to this meeting

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was we got the panelists together and

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asked them to think about what would be

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the interesting questions that they

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might want to explore because the whole

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purpose of the roadmap is to develop our

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research questions and the framework to

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explore over the next uh next decade so

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we then sub sub-selected from that some

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questions to talk about now but with the

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very explicit advice of the panelists

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that these are in no way meant to

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constrain their thinking it's just uh to

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give us an opportunity to have a

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slightly more structured conversation

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so i'm going to pop up the questions

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here um

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and

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i'm going to invite the panelists it's

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not a case of one by one you give your

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formal response it's um

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who wants to start first uh

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the first one was was one that looked

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verbatim from something i

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sent so why don't i go ahead and start

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off

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sounds a perfect segue go right so

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one of the issues i have with the

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origins community is that we're looking

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back into the past at things that are

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very very difficult if not impossible

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to really apprehend and so i think that

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in order to better understand origins

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and astrobiology it behooves us to focus

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on questions that we can actually answer

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experimentally whenever possible and in

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this regard i think that that nasa and

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is is almost a unique community or the

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nasa slash astrobiology slash exobiology

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slash origins community is almost a

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unique community and really trying to

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understand fundamental issues regarding

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replicators

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it's not something that nih does it's

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not something that nsf really does

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and so i'm very interested in questions

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about

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what are different types of replication

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i actually consider nucleic acid

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replicators to be a subset of all

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possible replicators and an interesting

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subset in that they're one of the only

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ones i know that actually can hold and

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change information and those are two

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very different things so i'd be

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interested moving forward in actually

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developing a framework for how to

283
00:10:52,069 --> 00:10:50,160
classify replicators how to say

284
00:10:53,910 --> 00:10:52,079
something about their potential for

285
00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:53,920
information carrying and information

286
00:10:58,069 --> 00:10:56,959
transfer and even how such processes of

287
00:11:03,030 --> 00:10:58,079
information

288
00:11:05,269 --> 00:11:03,040
out in terms of larger functionalities

289
00:11:06,630 --> 00:11:05,279
so there's just sort of a rephrasing of

290
00:11:07,350 --> 00:11:06,640
something i already wrote but that was

291
00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:07,360
the

292
00:11:13,509 --> 00:11:12,240
be as forward looking as possible and

293
00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:13,519
not backward looking because i think

294
00:11:22,310 --> 00:11:15,360
backward looking we have hasn't gotten

295
00:11:27,750 --> 00:11:24,790
great so andy just out of curiosity what

296
00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:27,760
what sort of research

297
00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:30,560
questions would come to mind

298
00:11:34,949 --> 00:11:32,640
right so you know again

299
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:34,959
any of these tend to be

300
00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:36,959
tend to be couched in things i know or

301
00:11:41,509 --> 00:11:39,040
grants that i would write and so with

302
00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:41,519
that i know with that proviso you know

303
00:11:45,670 --> 00:11:43,760
what you know um you know

304
00:11:48,069 --> 00:11:45,680
as you make not as you make modified

305
00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:48,079
genetic alphabets what is the fidelity

306
00:11:51,430 --> 00:11:50,720
of a modified genetic alphabet what are

307
00:11:53,670 --> 00:11:51,440
the

308
00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:53,680
conformational repertoires available to

309
00:11:57,190 --> 00:11:55,920
a modified genetic alphabet to what

310
00:11:59,350 --> 00:11:57,200
extent

311
00:12:01,829 --> 00:11:59,360
is a modified genetic alphabet capable

312
00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:01,839
of mutation you know are there optimal

313
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:03,600
alphabet sizes what are the parameters

314
00:12:09,829 --> 00:12:06,880
that determine optimal alphabet size how

315
00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:09,839
do sloppy replicators compare to

316
00:12:14,069 --> 00:12:13,120
faithful replicators in terms of

317
00:12:15,829 --> 00:12:14,079
the

318
00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:15,839
where function arises and how function

319
00:12:21,269 --> 00:12:18,880
is transferred or even how function

320
00:12:23,350 --> 00:12:21,279
proceeds across an adaptive landscape so

321
00:12:25,190 --> 00:12:23,360
so these are all questions that for me

322
00:12:27,590 --> 00:12:25,200
i can pause it without saying the word

323
00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:27,600
origins once but that i think were very

324
00:12:32,230 --> 00:12:30,000
relevant when we had a big mixture of

325
00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:32,240
compounds early on

326
00:12:36,790 --> 00:12:35,040
on earth or may run across a big mixture

327
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:36,800
of compound compounds elsewhere in the

328
00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:39,040
universe

329
00:12:44,790 --> 00:12:41,920
excellent can i add on to uh

330
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:44,800
right ahead um so another way that i've

331
00:12:48,389 --> 00:12:47,120
heard this put is that

332
00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:48,399
that life

333
00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:50,480
stores information

334
00:12:55,350 --> 00:12:53,040
genetic information in a digital way

335
00:12:57,190 --> 00:12:55,360
uh whereas often um

336
00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:57,200
the replicators that we create and and

337
00:13:01,110 --> 00:12:59,279
other uh forms of information in life

338
00:13:04,389 --> 00:13:01,120
are analog and so

339
00:13:08,310 --> 00:13:04,399
um i think that within this question it

340
00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:08,320
would also be interesting um to study

341
00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:09,120
how

342
00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:11,360
one kind of replicator can turn into

343
00:13:14,710 --> 00:13:13,600
another kind of replicator that might

344
00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:14,720
have more

345
00:13:19,750 --> 00:13:16,560
uh potential to be

346
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:21,910
sure i mean i think that i think it you

347
00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:23,279
know they're going to see that there's a

348
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:25,360
continuum of different types of

349
00:13:29,030 --> 00:13:27,600
replicators for me it's not an analog

350
00:13:29,990 --> 00:13:29,040
digital continuum it's more along the

351
00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:30,000
lines of

352
00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:32,560
fidelity of information transfer

353
00:13:35,509 --> 00:13:34,320
and you know conformational space

354
00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:35,519
available to you i have more of a

355
00:13:40,389 --> 00:13:37,920
chemist perspective on this but i think

356
00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:40,399
that absolutely we're going to segue you

357
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:42,000
know we can segue one to the other how

358
00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:43,519
those segways occur when those segways

359
00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:45,680
occur what are the advantages of such a

360
00:13:49,990 --> 00:13:47,440
segway are are really interesting

361
00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:52,710
nick do you want to chip in

362
00:13:59,590 --> 00:13:56,240
yeah so andy i agree with a lot of you

363
00:14:01,590 --> 00:13:59,600
i'm actually wondering though um

364
00:14:03,509 --> 00:14:01,600
whether in this question and it seems

365
00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:03,519
like we have just a few of them whether

366
00:14:05,910 --> 00:14:05,040
it should be broadened or the language

367
00:14:07,829 --> 00:14:05,920
should be

368
00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:07,839
looked at carefully about you know

369
00:14:12,790 --> 00:14:09,680
replicators you know one

370
00:14:15,350 --> 00:14:12,800
new that i have a lot in in the origins

371
00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:15,360
community has been this focus on a

372
00:14:19,829 --> 00:14:18,720
replicator for the replicator uh

373
00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:19,839
you know just for the sake of a

374
00:14:22,389 --> 00:14:21,040
replicator

375
00:14:23,910 --> 00:14:22,399
and um

376
00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:23,920
and i i've had a problem with that

377
00:14:28,710 --> 00:14:26,480
because you know if that thing's gonna

378
00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:28,720
evolve i don't see where you can go and

379
00:14:33,030 --> 00:14:31,920
get other functions that would be

380
00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:33,040
allowed

381
00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:34,240
and so

382
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:36,480
you know i've i thought that

383
00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:38,720
you know in addition to thinking about

384
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:40,399
you know what has been classically

385
00:14:46,069 --> 00:14:43,680
discussed as replicators

386
00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:46,079
again going to the broadening of the the

387
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:48,320
um chemistry that could give you that

388
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:50,800
you know you could have say

389
00:14:55,430 --> 00:14:52,800
you know assemblies that

390
00:14:57,350 --> 00:14:55,440
you know stabilize

391
00:14:59,350 --> 00:14:57,360
that are similar to themselves so they

392
00:15:01,590 --> 00:14:59,360
last longer or something like that right

393
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:01,600
and and the process by which they're

394
00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:03,760
produced are not necessarily driven by

395
00:15:07,910 --> 00:15:06,160
that quote-unquote replicator

396
00:15:11,189 --> 00:15:07,920
but you get to build up

397
00:15:13,189 --> 00:15:11,199
of some molecules some polymer that

398
00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:13,199
becomes a species and it gets selected

399
00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:15,120
because it has some type of an activity

400
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:15,920
right

401
00:15:20,870 --> 00:15:19,440
argument this is a discussion you and i

402
00:15:22,389 --> 00:15:20,880
had over the years about replicators

403
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:22,399
versus the creators

404
00:15:27,430 --> 00:15:25,040
and i i think the creators are cool

405
00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:27,440
um i've never quite

406
00:15:31,829 --> 00:15:30,240
come up with a theoretical framework for

407
00:15:34,069 --> 00:15:31,839
and a creator not that it necessarily

408
00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:34,079
needs one but one one way one thing i

409
00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:35,519
think we have to gonna have to do going

410
00:15:39,030 --> 00:15:36,880
forward is you know how do we bound

411
00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:39,040
these problems in ways that

412
00:15:43,670 --> 00:15:41,360
um you know the community can can

413
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:43,680
understand or we can just understand we

414
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:45,040
know what we're trying to achieve or

415
00:15:47,269 --> 00:15:46,240
even more to the point you know when we

416
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:47,279
go out to

417
00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:48,480
you know

418
00:15:52,949 --> 00:15:50,800
say the mission of nasa is x to the

419
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:52,959
public you know we can i think with some

420
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:54,480
reasonable confidence say you know by

421
00:15:57,670 --> 00:15:55,839
god we're going to figure out what a

422
00:16:00,150 --> 00:15:57,680
replicator is and we'll find one on

423
00:16:01,350 --> 00:16:00,160
another planet and a crater is such a

424
00:16:03,110 --> 00:16:01,360
cool

425
00:16:04,550 --> 00:16:03,120
idea it it

426
00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:04,560
it it's

427
00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:06,880
again it's a neat thing but i but i've

428
00:16:11,829 --> 00:16:09,600
never really figured out how to do good

429
00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:11,839
accreter research i mean the best i the

430
00:16:15,189 --> 00:16:13,440
best like i can see is there there's

431
00:16:17,189 --> 00:16:15,199
there's hints of a creator

432
00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:17,199
research occurring in the dna nanotech

433
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:18,800
field and other of the fields that i

434
00:16:22,870 --> 00:16:21,279
hang on the edge of and you're beginning

435
00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:22,880
to see some of these issues that you

436
00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:24,480
just raised actually answered

437
00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:28,399
experimentally sort of in that field but

438
00:16:31,509 --> 00:16:29,519
i don't know if those answers are

439
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:31,519
satisfactory for us or for you i i

440
00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:33,600
really don't

441
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:36,000
isn't it

442
00:16:39,829 --> 00:16:38,320
i'm the perennial optimist that i think

443
00:16:41,509 --> 00:16:39,839
that you know we will develop

444
00:16:42,870 --> 00:16:41,519
experimental systems and i you know just

445
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:42,880
to throw it out to everybody else that's

446
00:16:47,509 --> 00:16:45,040
listening you know what are say just one

447
00:16:49,829 --> 00:16:47,519
example that i could think of that would

448
00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:49,839
match this so that we can you know put

449
00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:52,560
this you know a system to the uh you

450
00:16:58,389 --> 00:16:54,480
know charmic creator you know for

451
00:17:00,949 --> 00:16:58,399
example let's say that we have a pool

452
00:17:04,549 --> 00:17:00,959
and a chemistry that allows the

453
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:04,559
spontaneous formation of short peptides

454
00:17:07,990 --> 00:17:06,480
and then there's also some type of

455
00:17:10,390 --> 00:17:08,000
backward reaction right that's

456
00:17:12,069 --> 00:17:10,400
hydrolyzing them and what the creator

457
00:17:13,029 --> 00:17:12,079
might be is

458
00:17:19,590 --> 00:17:13,039
that

459
00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:19,600
themselves from hydrolysis build up

460
00:17:23,750 --> 00:17:21,760
right and so you know if you write out

461
00:17:26,549 --> 00:17:23,760
the equation it's very much akin to a

462
00:17:28,309 --> 00:17:26,559
replicator right thing it's it's you

463
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:28,319
know templating but it's it's grabbing

464
00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:30,400
on stuff that's made and i bring that up

465
00:17:34,230 --> 00:17:32,080
because

466
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:34,240
in the language of this i'd be a little

467
00:17:37,909 --> 00:17:36,480
afraid that if it was directed toward

468
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:37,919
replicator we're going to get everybody

469
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:40,240
trying to get their hyper cycle and

470
00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:42,720
replication for replication's sake not

471
00:17:49,510 --> 00:17:45,840
necessarily again this buildup of

472
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:49,520
functional polymers being selected right

473
00:17:54,310 --> 00:17:51,039
at the same time that they're being

474
00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:55,590
yep i mean

475
00:17:58,950 --> 00:17:56,960
again i just think that the thing we

476
00:18:00,470 --> 00:17:58,960
want to not do though is try and be

477
00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:00,480
sitting there juggling

478
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:04,160
52 grants with 52 different schemas for

479
00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:05,600
a creators where we don't have a way to

480
00:18:08,789 --> 00:18:06,720
compare them the nice thing about

481
00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:08,799
replicators when we at least

482
00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:10,880
you know push on the word information a

483
00:18:14,310 --> 00:18:12,320
little bit or push on the word

484
00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:14,320
confirmation or function because we sort

485
00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:16,240
of at least have a framework to think

486
00:18:19,510 --> 00:18:17,760
about and even if somebody comes forward

487
00:18:20,789 --> 00:18:19,520
with something really weird we can at

488
00:18:22,230 --> 00:18:20,799
least say okay well how would this

489
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:22,240
compare to

490
00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:25,760
protein it doesn't have to be a dna it

491
00:18:28,390 --> 00:18:27,120
doesn't have to be a protein but at

492
00:18:30,549 --> 00:18:28,400
least we have a an intellectual

493
00:18:32,230 --> 00:18:30,559
framework for for the comparison for an

494
00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:32,240
accreter where we have about zero

495
00:18:37,110 --> 00:18:34,320
examples i'm just worried people will

496
00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:37,120
come in with whack job ideas that

497
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:39,360
you know may be interesting but don't

498
00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:41,200
really help advance at least what i

499
00:18:44,789 --> 00:18:42,960
think of as the field

500
00:18:45,990 --> 00:18:44,799
they don't provide us with something

501
00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:46,000
that's really going to give us a better

502
00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:48,000
understanding of having a creator could

503
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:50,880
have functioned at origins or could

504
00:18:56,390 --> 00:18:52,640
you know operate currently in

505
00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:56,400
astrobiology um in another venue

506
00:19:01,430 --> 00:18:59,200
aaron did you yeah

507
00:19:04,230 --> 00:19:01,440
yeah uh and this is this sort of gets

508
00:19:06,390 --> 00:19:04,240
back into my transition point that maybe

509
00:19:08,870 --> 00:19:06,400
the metric we're looking for is whether

510
00:19:10,549 --> 00:19:08,880
it can if there isn't if there's a if

511
00:19:12,789 --> 00:19:10,559
there's a

512
00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:12,799
scheme in which an accreter

513
00:19:17,110 --> 00:19:14,640
could um

514
00:19:18,710 --> 00:19:17,120
continuously evolve into something that

515
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:18,720
we would recognize more as a genetic

516
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:19,840
system

517
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:23,039
um that maybe that's the metric by which

518
00:19:25,510 --> 00:19:24,720
we can

519
00:19:26,549 --> 00:19:25,520
uh

520
00:19:27,669 --> 00:19:26,559
weigh

521
00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:27,679
one

522
00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:31,039
proposal versus another is its ability

523
00:19:33,029 --> 00:19:32,000
to

524
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:33,039
evolve

525
00:19:37,270 --> 00:19:34,960
um toward a more complex system like the

526
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:37,280
one that we see

527
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:38,720
and that actually kind of gets to the

528
00:19:42,630 --> 00:19:40,240
last question so they're starting to

529
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:42,640
overlap a little bit

530
00:19:47,909 --> 00:19:44,960
well let me pick up just at that moment

531
00:19:50,830 --> 00:19:47,919
and just uh talk to the participants who

532
00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:50,840
are dialed in on here um

533
00:19:56,789 --> 00:19:54,400
we strongly encourage you to add your

534
00:19:59,190 --> 00:19:56,799
thoughts into the chat window just to

535
00:20:01,270 --> 00:19:59,200
make sure it's clear for everyone to the

536
00:20:03,270 --> 00:20:01,280
right hand side of the list of attendees

537
00:20:05,110 --> 00:20:03,280
you'll see a window that's called open

538
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:05,120
chat

539
00:20:08,789 --> 00:20:07,520
if you want to uh thank you very much

540
00:20:10,950 --> 00:20:08,799
andy um

541
00:20:14,710 --> 00:20:10,960
if you want to uh

542
00:20:16,630 --> 00:20:14,720
add questions comments disagree put in

543
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:16,640
tangential items that you think we

544
00:20:20,950 --> 00:20:19,120
should be exploring do please do that

545
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:20,960
great thank you senator

546
00:20:25,750 --> 00:20:23,520
okay um let's move on to our next

547
00:20:28,390 --> 00:20:25,760
question aaron do you want to start

548
00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:28,400
boundary conditions

549
00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:30,559
well i'm actually probably one of the

550
00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:32,480
worst people to start on that one

551
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:34,720
because uh i think that came from

552
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:37,520
i'll just sell that next to it yeah

553
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:39,440
yeah that one looks like it evolved from

554
00:20:43,669 --> 00:20:41,200
mine so just to uh

555
00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:43,679
read that is how is life impacted by

556
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:46,080
elemental boundary conditions

557
00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:48,240
if we had a very different set of metal

558
00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:50,080
ions in the environment how would that

559
00:20:53,669 --> 00:20:51,520
impact the functionality of living

560
00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:53,679
systems similar to those that have

561
00:20:57,669 --> 00:20:56,240
arisen on earth so

562
00:21:00,149 --> 00:20:57,679
um

563
00:21:02,230 --> 00:21:00,159
in the background of this before

564
00:21:03,990 --> 00:21:02,240
we had sent in a number of questions and

565
00:21:06,149 --> 00:21:04,000
i think that this one

566
00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:06,159
is probably a

567
00:21:10,710 --> 00:21:08,400
you know a summation or came out of a

568
00:21:11,750 --> 00:21:10,720
couple of different ones i had in there

569
00:21:13,350 --> 00:21:11,760
and uh

570
00:21:14,789 --> 00:21:13,360
i i think that

571
00:21:16,870 --> 00:21:14,799
you know the

572
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:16,880
the it's nice that the first part of

573
00:21:20,470 --> 00:21:19,360
that has to do with the metal ions

574
00:21:21,590 --> 00:21:20,480
because

575
00:21:23,909 --> 00:21:21,600
one

576
00:21:25,669 --> 00:21:23,919
big point i think that we have to

577
00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:25,679
contend with in in original life

578
00:21:32,390 --> 00:21:29,280
scenarios is that the cl that the

579
00:21:34,149 --> 00:21:32,400
uh earlier clearly had a lot more iron

580
00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:34,159
iron ii available right it's all been

581
00:21:38,630 --> 00:21:35,760
precipitated in this banded iron

582
00:21:39,909 --> 00:21:38,640
formation and if you were to point to

583
00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:39,919
um

584
00:21:45,270 --> 00:21:43,440
one metal that would affect chemistry

585
00:21:46,950 --> 00:21:45,280
iron's a good one i mean it's it's an

586
00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:46,960
amazing uh

587
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:48,880
participant in redox reaction we use it

588
00:21:53,669 --> 00:21:51,600
all the time in life today so it it begs

589
00:21:55,909 --> 00:21:53,679
the question of you know if we're doing

590
00:21:58,470 --> 00:21:55,919
prebiotic chemistry research how you

591
00:21:59,990 --> 00:21:58,480
know how different would that be in an

592
00:22:02,149 --> 00:22:00,000
oxygen free

593
00:22:03,350 --> 00:22:02,159
iron ii rich environment compared to

594
00:22:05,909 --> 00:22:03,360
what we're doing

595
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:05,919
uh in the lab so i think that we have to

596
00:22:09,669 --> 00:22:07,360
ask those questions i don't think

597
00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:09,679
they've been asked enough and expanding

598
00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:10,640
that too

599
00:22:14,149 --> 00:22:13,200
beyond just the iron

600
00:22:15,909 --> 00:22:14,159
uh

601
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:15,919
question you know we can think about

602
00:22:19,430 --> 00:22:17,679
again different scenarios having to do

603
00:22:21,110 --> 00:22:19,440
with with the atmosphere was it really

604
00:22:23,909 --> 00:22:21,120
high co2 how does that affect the

605
00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:23,919
atmosphere was it reducing do we have h2

606
00:22:26,549 --> 00:22:25,440
available

607
00:22:28,230 --> 00:22:26,559
i think we've got to think about all

608
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:28,240
those parameters

609
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:30,720
and not just give card bonus that you

610
00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:32,320
can do anything you want but it's got to

611
00:22:36,470 --> 00:22:34,320
be connected to a scenario that shows

612
00:22:38,950 --> 00:22:36,480
that this provides interesting chemistry

613
00:22:40,630 --> 00:22:38,960
or interesting ways out of a present

614
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:40,640
quandary if we consider alternative

615
00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:46,230
if you were going to spend research

616
00:22:50,870 --> 00:22:50,240
money on on this question what what sort

617
00:22:52,470 --> 00:22:50,880
of

618
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:52,480
research

619
00:22:59,510 --> 00:22:54,880
programs would you be interested in

620
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,029
so um

621
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:05,190
this is an interesting question and and

622
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:06,000
all

623
00:23:10,870 --> 00:23:09,520
it with just the same way that andy said

624
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:10,880
uh when you look at this you're looking

625
00:23:13,590 --> 00:23:12,480
for your own research right and so

626
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:13,600
you're saying hi you know this is what

627
00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:15,200
i'm doing and i like this you know and

628
00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:17,760
uh and so you know preface it that way

629
00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:18,880
you know one thing that we're doing

630
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:21,600
right now is we're looking at uh in in

631
00:23:25,029 --> 00:23:22,960
collaboration with my colleague lauren

632
00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:25,039
williams we're looking at what can rna

633
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:27,600
do when it has iron bound to it rather

634
00:23:31,029 --> 00:23:29,760
than magnesium and the answer is it can

635
00:23:32,789 --> 00:23:31,039
actually do a lot of chemistry it can't

636
00:23:33,990 --> 00:23:32,799
do besides before that

637
00:23:36,549 --> 00:23:34,000
and so that means that we could

638
00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:36,559
potentially solve a lot of problems that

639
00:23:42,149 --> 00:23:38,960
you know now are solved by proteins

640
00:23:44,549 --> 00:23:42,159
you know with rna binding iron

641
00:23:47,029 --> 00:23:44,559
so so looking at you know these kind of

642
00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:47,039
what if questions of what if the system

643
00:23:51,510 --> 00:23:48,720
we had today

644
00:23:54,470 --> 00:23:51,520
was in that alternate environment what

645
00:23:56,470 --> 00:23:54,480
could it do or could it not do right and

646
00:23:58,710 --> 00:23:56,480
so that's to me and i think that that

647
00:24:00,870 --> 00:23:58,720
connects somewhat nicely with what andy

648
00:24:02,710 --> 00:24:00,880
had mentioned andy says you know what is

649
00:24:04,630 --> 00:24:02,720
the you know experimental system that we

650
00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:04,640
can use we don't know

651
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:05,600
um

652
00:24:09,029 --> 00:24:07,440
everything well we about what the

653
00:24:10,950 --> 00:24:09,039
environment was like or what molecules

654
00:24:13,190 --> 00:24:10,960
were like but we can we can take things

655
00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:13,200
we have to extrapolate back

656
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:14,640
and i think that

657
00:24:18,549 --> 00:24:16,000
you know those are really good questions

658
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:18,559
to ask you know with the biopolymers we

659
00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:19,840
have today

660
00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:21,840
under the alternative condition you know

661
00:24:25,510 --> 00:24:23,039
maybe

662
00:24:28,070 --> 00:24:25,520
you know um the

663
00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:28,080
minerals the solvents the ions the

664
00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:30,240
atmosphere all all different

665
00:24:36,549 --> 00:24:32,640
and so that that could uh

666
00:24:37,590 --> 00:24:36,559
give us um some insights on how they

667
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:37,600
might have been able to function

668
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:39,440
differently constraints on whether they

669
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:41,760
really did start at those times um

670
00:24:44,789 --> 00:24:43,440
constraints on what the environment must

671
00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:44,799
have been at the time that they did

672
00:24:49,590 --> 00:24:47,520
emerge

673
00:24:52,149 --> 00:24:49,600
possibly

674
00:24:54,149 --> 00:24:52,159
broader broader than uh

675
00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:54,159
this question would be

676
00:24:58,390 --> 00:24:55,840
which aspects of biology and

677
00:25:01,029 --> 00:24:58,400
biochemistry

678
00:25:03,029 --> 00:25:01,039
are not only bound elemental boundary

679
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:03,039
are are uh impacted by the elemental

680
00:25:06,789 --> 00:25:04,799
boundary conditions but also just the

681
00:25:08,789 --> 00:25:06,799
historical contingencies

682
00:25:11,269 --> 00:25:08,799
of life's origins so

683
00:25:13,669 --> 00:25:11,279
um for example the main energy currency

684
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:13,679
of life is also

685
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:17,600
the main subunit of the genetic molecule

686
00:25:21,029 --> 00:25:18,640
and

687
00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:21,039
is that because those two that molecule

688
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:22,400
is really good at both or is that

689
00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:24,640
because they can do both and

690
00:25:27,990 --> 00:25:25,760
um

691
00:25:34,149 --> 00:25:28,000
and the origin of life just so happened

692
00:25:37,990 --> 00:25:36,470
andy do you want to add anything on this

693
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:38,000
yeah so i have a i think a slightly

694
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:39,840
different view than the nick or perhaps

695
00:25:42,870 --> 00:25:41,279
some of the other participants i'm not

696
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:42,880
particularly concerned

697
00:25:46,230 --> 00:25:44,799
about the boundary conditions for earth

698
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:46,240
i'm really again

699
00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:48,080
much more interested in in novel

700
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:50,080
chemistry how do chemistries different

701
00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:51,360
chemistries

702
00:25:55,590 --> 00:25:54,000
promote the

703
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:55,600
the origin and evolution of any of a

704
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:57,600
variety of of living systems and for

705
00:26:01,510 --> 00:25:59,200
living systems i generally confine

706
00:26:03,669 --> 00:26:01,520
myself to to replicators rather than

707
00:26:05,990 --> 00:26:03,679
creators but we can make it broader as

708
00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:06,000
necessary so the problem is of course as

709
00:26:09,269 --> 00:26:07,760
and i think nick did point this out that

710
00:26:10,789 --> 00:26:09,279
we don't have a whole heck of a lot of

711
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:10,799
examples but what i could see being

712
00:26:16,310 --> 00:26:13,200
funded out of this would be anything

713
00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:16,320
from say lee cronin's molybdenum

714
00:26:20,710 --> 00:26:18,320
replicators that he's been

715
00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:20,720
mucking about with over in glasgow

716
00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:23,440
up through folks who wanted to expand

717
00:26:28,630 --> 00:26:27,200
the genetic code to 256 amino acids and

718
00:26:32,149 --> 00:26:28,640
while the latter

719
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:32,159
is definitively post origins nonetheless

720
00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:35,200
it is a system that allows us to explore

721
00:26:40,149 --> 00:26:37,440
what chemistries help or don't help if

722
00:26:42,630 --> 00:26:40,159
you know we had more selenium um in the

723
00:26:44,950 --> 00:26:42,640
environment what redox chemistries would

724
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:44,960
cells evolve could they evolve you know

725
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:46,960
if we remove potassium from the

726
00:26:51,269 --> 00:26:49,279
environment so that we can go on very

727
00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:51,279
long space journeys without k-40 eating

728
00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:52,400
this up

729
00:26:56,789 --> 00:26:54,640
you know what would those

730
00:26:57,909 --> 00:26:56,799
cells be like so i think that cells give

731
00:26:59,190 --> 00:26:57,919
us a nice

732
00:27:00,950 --> 00:26:59,200
a nice

733
00:27:02,710 --> 00:27:00,960
system for exploring changes in

734
00:27:04,149 --> 00:27:02,720
chemistry that affects living systems

735
00:27:05,190 --> 00:27:04,159
and other than that we're going to have

736
00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:05,200
to

737
00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:07,120
either again change you know genetic

738
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:08,960
alphabets or other sort of replicator

739
00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:10,000
based

740
00:27:15,269 --> 00:27:12,559
chemistries or come up with really

741
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:15,279
cool new chemistry you know again

742
00:27:18,549 --> 00:27:16,480
or other

743
00:27:21,750 --> 00:27:18,559
replicators that that

744
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:21,760
almost defy description at this point

745
00:27:25,669 --> 00:27:24,240
so let me um come in there and and kind

746
00:27:27,909 --> 00:27:25,679
of

747
00:27:29,830 --> 00:27:27,919
perhaps disagree a bit with andy there

748
00:27:31,110 --> 00:27:29,840
is that within the

749
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:31,120
um

750
00:27:37,430 --> 00:27:34,640
charge of you know the the uh program on

751
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:37,440
prebiotic evolution i you know i'm i'm

752
00:27:42,789 --> 00:27:41,039
not i'm not so sure that you want to

753
00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:42,799
just open it up to you know what

754
00:27:46,789 --> 00:27:45,120
replicator of anything right because i

755
00:27:50,470 --> 00:27:46,799
think that the ultimate goal of this is

756
00:27:52,950 --> 00:27:50,480
to see um you know how life on earth

757
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:52,960
could get going or got going and you

758
00:27:56,549 --> 00:27:54,480
know can we have

759
00:27:58,470 --> 00:27:56,559
similar life on other places i mean if

760
00:28:00,789 --> 00:27:58,480
you broaden it up like you say

761
00:28:02,950 --> 00:28:00,799
you say that is lee's cronin system

762
00:28:06,070 --> 00:28:02,960
living or not the problem is that the

763
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:06,080
space is so broad in chemistry our

764
00:28:10,149 --> 00:28:08,640
chemistry space rather is so broad that

765
00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:10,159
i think then you know then we get into

766
00:28:13,990 --> 00:28:12,240
this well is this living or is it not i

767
00:28:16,870 --> 00:28:14,000
think we're better off

768
00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:16,880
if we are looking at systems that are

769
00:28:21,029 --> 00:28:18,880
you know connected to what we had today

770
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:21,039
or we think our potential ancestors that

771
00:28:24,710 --> 00:28:22,000
we had

772
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:24,720
and then asking the question how could

773
00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:26,399
the environment

774
00:28:31,029 --> 00:28:28,640
have facilitated this

775
00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:31,039
um on the early earth

776
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:34,640
or how could your favorite scenario you

777
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:36,320
know would have it been allowed or

778
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:38,640
disallowed by what we know now the

779
00:28:43,590 --> 00:28:41,360
constraints are you know still being

780
00:28:45,510 --> 00:28:43,600
formulated for the early earth and you

781
00:28:48,149 --> 00:28:45,520
know george cody had put into the chat

782
00:28:50,710 --> 00:28:48,159
box there you know something about

783
00:28:52,789 --> 00:28:50,720
uh geochemical constraints and an

784
00:28:54,389 --> 00:28:52,799
elemental availability and you know as

785
00:28:57,110 --> 00:28:54,399
he said like phosphorus is still a

786
00:28:59,830 --> 00:28:57,120
problem right or it's a is a problem in

787
00:29:02,789 --> 00:28:59,840
the absence of life you know so

788
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:02,799
these i think are are big questions

789
00:29:07,350 --> 00:29:05,760
um that are already broad enough without

790
00:29:09,669 --> 00:29:07,360
saying you know we'll let life be

791
00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:09,679
whatever you want to define us

792
00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:10,880
yeah so

793
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:13,120
again it unsurprisingly nick and again

794
00:29:17,350 --> 00:29:14,960
this is you know part of a long ongoing

795
00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:17,360
conversation i i do i do disagree with

796
00:29:19,909 --> 00:29:18,960
that it's up to nasa of course whether

797
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:19,919
this is

798
00:29:24,310 --> 00:29:21,520
going to be solely related to earth

799
00:29:26,549 --> 00:29:24,320
origins or not but i think that

800
00:29:27,750 --> 00:29:26,559
that stricture is it's a in one hand

801
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:27,760
it's a little odd coming from somebody

802
00:29:31,750 --> 00:29:29,360
who is just arguing for a creators of

803
00:29:33,430 --> 00:29:31,760
which we have no modern examples but but

804
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:33,440
nonetheless if we're going to restrict

805
00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:35,360
ourselves to sort of terrestrial

806
00:29:39,750 --> 00:29:37,440
chemistry and biochemistry i think we we

807
00:29:41,909 --> 00:29:39,760
do a disservice the field has focused on

808
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:41,919
that for you know

809
00:29:46,070 --> 00:29:44,320
a long long time and i would argue

810
00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:46,080
without a whole hell of a lot of success

811
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:48,480
and um one of the reasons for that is

812
00:29:51,909 --> 00:29:50,240
not that they're not really smart people

813
00:29:53,909 --> 00:29:51,919
working really hard but because i think

814
00:29:55,990 --> 00:29:53,919
many of these questions are ultimately

815
00:29:58,310 --> 00:29:56,000
unanswerable

816
00:30:00,389 --> 00:29:58,320
with respect to terrestrial systems we

817
00:30:02,549 --> 00:30:00,399
just will never know and i think by

818
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:02,559
broadening it to the possibilities for

819
00:30:08,230 --> 00:30:05,360
living systems here or elsewhere

820
00:30:12,070 --> 00:30:08,240
of any of a variety of stripes we give

821
00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:12,080
nasa a broader better more answerable

822
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:14,640
mission rather than just retreading you

823
00:30:20,389 --> 00:30:17,440
know the the origin slash exobiology

824
00:30:23,190 --> 00:30:20,399
slash astrobiology rebranding that has

825
00:30:24,950 --> 00:30:23,200
occurred so far so if anything you know

826
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:24,960
i i would like to go exactly the

827
00:30:27,110 --> 00:30:26,399
opposite direction i would like to to

828
00:30:28,310 --> 00:30:27,120
just

829
00:30:29,990 --> 00:30:28,320
ignore

830
00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:30,000
terrestrial constraints to the greatest

831
00:30:34,950 --> 00:30:32,159
extent possible but again that's just my

832
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:34,960
own opinion you know nasa and others

833
00:30:38,789 --> 00:30:36,640
will do what they want

834
00:30:40,549 --> 00:30:38,799
well i just agree that we haven't made

835
00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:40,559
any made major

836
00:30:43,350 --> 00:30:42,080
that we haven't accomplished anything in

837
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:43,360
the last uh

838
00:30:47,510 --> 00:30:45,520
20 or 30 years of doing this research

839
00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:47,520
and i think that looking at modern

840
00:30:52,230 --> 00:30:49,520
biology both

841
00:30:54,549 --> 00:30:52,240
looking back through modern biology and

842
00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:54,559
understanding what order

843
00:30:58,310 --> 00:30:56,480
at least we think into a very high

844
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:58,320
degree of confidence to different

845
00:31:02,070 --> 00:31:00,000
polymers arose

846
00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:02,080
and then also looking across

847
00:31:08,549 --> 00:31:04,960
to see at least what the constraints are

848
00:31:09,830 --> 00:31:08,559
um in modern life has been valuable um

849
00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:09,840
and we can't

850
00:31:12,870 --> 00:31:12,000
really toss that away

851
00:31:15,110 --> 00:31:12,880
uh

852
00:31:17,590 --> 00:31:15,120
because it's our only

853
00:31:19,990 --> 00:31:17,600
example where and we know that life did

854
00:31:20,789 --> 00:31:20,000
originate i agree with you that we

855
00:31:26,230 --> 00:31:20,799
should

856
00:31:27,430 --> 00:31:26,240
opinion about origins of life

857
00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:27,440
throughout

858
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:29,440
the universe but we have this nice

859
00:31:35,590 --> 00:31:32,000
example and it's been a productive it's

860
00:31:41,350 --> 00:31:38,870
okay um let's move on and uh in the

861
00:31:43,830 --> 00:31:41,360
meantime i'll email lee and ask him to

862
00:31:45,909 --> 00:31:43,840
send us all his 3d reaction wear

863
00:31:47,909 --> 00:31:45,919
diagrams so we can print it out and do

864
00:31:48,789 --> 00:31:47,919
our experiments while we're talking

865
00:31:53,909 --> 00:31:48,799
um

866
00:31:55,990 --> 00:31:53,919
no nick should i start with you again

867
00:31:59,110 --> 00:31:56,000
role of uh if any of minerals could have

868
00:32:00,630 --> 00:31:59,120
played in early catalysis yeah i think

869
00:32:03,430 --> 00:32:00,640
that that one actually was probably

870
00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:03,440
right out of my questions on there um

871
00:32:08,389 --> 00:32:05,440
yeah it's just it's a

872
00:32:10,789 --> 00:32:08,399
it's a reoccurring question right uh

873
00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:10,799
you know we

874
00:32:19,269 --> 00:32:16,960
uh you know life probably evolved in

875
00:32:21,269 --> 00:32:19,279
contact with you know some type of

876
00:32:23,669 --> 00:32:21,279
substrate and just as michael had said

877
00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:23,679
they're not interested in life starting

878
00:32:28,149 --> 00:32:26,080
out you know in the maybe the gas phase

879
00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:28,159
it's on a planet right and if you're on

880
00:32:31,509 --> 00:32:29,919
a planet you're on a surface and if

881
00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:31,519
you're there getting life started for

882
00:32:35,590 --> 00:32:33,360
millions of years there's probably some

883
00:32:37,190 --> 00:32:35,600
type of interaction going on with what

884
00:32:38,389 --> 00:32:37,200
was the substrate

885
00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:38,399
and uh

886
00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:40,080
you know i you know i'll be the first

887
00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:41,679
one to say that i you know i'm not

888
00:32:46,630 --> 00:32:45,120
really into this really

889
00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:46,640
strong connection to the minerals where

890
00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:49,200
you have like the you know the the the

891
00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:51,200
clay replicator or something like that

892
00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:53,440
but that being said

893
00:32:59,430 --> 00:32:56,480
uh minerals are absolutely a source a

894
00:33:01,830 --> 00:32:59,440
sink of ions that could have been uh

895
00:33:03,909 --> 00:33:01,840
important um they're where you're going

896
00:33:04,870 --> 00:33:03,919
to find your phosphate if phosphate's

897
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:04,880
where the

898
00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:06,480
that that element is going to the

899
00:33:09,909 --> 00:33:07,840
phosphorus is going to come in from so

900
00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:09,919
you have to think about that

901
00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:12,000
and then of course minerals can act as

902
00:33:15,669 --> 00:33:13,440
catalysts and there's been a lot of

903
00:33:18,149 --> 00:33:15,679
theories on on that like the iron sulfur

904
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:18,159
ones and so i just think it's it's still

905
00:33:24,470 --> 00:33:20,720
something that's you know worth

906
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:24,480
worth considering for sure

907
00:33:27,190 --> 00:33:25,200
so

908
00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:27,200
let me ask you based obviously on my

909
00:33:31,110 --> 00:33:29,360
very limited understanding of this has

910
00:33:34,149 --> 00:33:31,120
any of the conversation that we've

911
00:33:38,230 --> 00:33:34,159
involved so or explored so far

912
00:33:40,789 --> 00:33:38,240
involved sending probes to titan or and

913
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:40,799
the reason i ask that is in the previous

914
00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:42,960
webinar which was about exploring solar

915
00:33:47,350 --> 00:33:45,360
systems people were very keen on all

916
00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:47,360
sorts of missions

917
00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:50,080
in terms of identifying road maps sort

918
00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:52,640
of questions and where nasa should be

919
00:33:57,430 --> 00:33:55,120
spending its money

920
00:33:59,509 --> 00:33:57,440
what does what does prebiotic chemistry

921
00:34:09,990 --> 00:33:59,519
actually require is it all lab-based

922
00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:10,869
of

923
00:34:16,550 --> 00:34:14,480
astronomical observation there um that

924
00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:16,560
understanding you know the chemistry

925
00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:19,520
that occurs elsewhere as best we can

926
00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:22,399
informs what could occur

927
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:24,720
on a planet or wherever or what we might

928
00:34:28,149 --> 00:34:26,800
want to attempt in a lab so i would say

929
00:34:29,829 --> 00:34:28,159
that it doesn't have to only be

930
00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:29,839
experimental it could be at some level

931
00:34:34,629 --> 00:34:32,320
observational

932
00:34:35,589 --> 00:34:34,639
so what i'm really interested here is

933
00:34:40,230 --> 00:34:35,599
what

934
00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:40,240
about say in terms of the minerals

935
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:42,960
are there particular research

936
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:45,200
questions that if you're thinking in a

937
00:34:49,669 --> 00:34:48,000
decadal terms you'd say this is what i

938
00:34:51,669 --> 00:34:49,679
really want to know and obviously this

939
00:34:53,669 --> 00:34:51,679
question to all three of you where would

940
00:34:55,669 --> 00:34:53,679
you spend your money

941
00:34:58,150 --> 00:34:55,679
given that you have a bias to your own

942
00:34:59,750 --> 00:34:58,160
areas of knowledge

943
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:59,760
um

944
00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:01,440
yeah i think

945
00:35:06,390 --> 00:35:04,000
yeah uh with respect to

946
00:35:09,349 --> 00:35:06,400
um

947
00:35:12,630 --> 00:35:09,359
uh you know for just as as an example on

948
00:35:13,990 --> 00:35:12,640
on the on the phosphorous one right that

949
00:35:15,670 --> 00:35:14,000
if you don't have it you don't go to

950
00:35:16,790 --> 00:35:15,680
that next stage so where was the

951
00:35:19,589 --> 00:35:16,800
phosphorus how do you get that

952
00:35:22,390 --> 00:35:19,599
phosphorus out right and and use it uh

953
00:35:23,270 --> 00:35:22,400
in the earliest system that's an example

954
00:35:24,710 --> 00:35:23,280
um

955
00:35:27,030 --> 00:35:24,720
and then

956
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:27,040
you know what you know what came up in

957
00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:28,320
the chat window is that you know the

958
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:30,160
study of ancient terrestrial rocks you

959
00:35:33,109 --> 00:35:31,440
know could add some context i think

960
00:35:33,990 --> 00:35:33,119
that's an important thing too because if

961
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:34,000
you're

962
00:35:38,870 --> 00:35:36,000
you know what we we know quite well is

963
00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:38,880
that there's a incredible um

964
00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:41,200
evolution of the rocks that we have on

965
00:35:44,550 --> 00:35:43,760
earth that there was far fewer

966
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:44,560
as

967
00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:48,240
bob hazen pointed out species early on

968
00:35:51,910 --> 00:35:49,200
and so

969
00:35:54,870 --> 00:35:51,920
you know you want to say okay

970
00:35:57,430 --> 00:35:54,880
given what was there and what we see is

971
00:35:59,829 --> 00:35:57,440
the critical reactions to make certain

972
00:36:01,510 --> 00:35:59,839
molecules uh could some of those play

973
00:36:05,750 --> 00:36:01,520
the roles i think very specific

974
00:36:10,390 --> 00:36:07,349
i i would add

975
00:36:13,270 --> 00:36:10,400
from the top down perspective there's a

976
00:36:14,790 --> 00:36:13,280
number of very ancient proteins that are

977
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:14,800
central to

978
00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:16,560
uh

979
00:36:22,950 --> 00:36:19,040
to areas of metabolism that that we know

980
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:22,960
are very old uh dna manufacturer or the

981
00:36:27,030 --> 00:36:24,400
generation of

982
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:27,040
energy um through the membrane-bound

983
00:36:31,990 --> 00:36:29,760
atpase um

984
00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:32,000
the membrane the proteins associated

985
00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:35,200
with these functions uh their catalytic

986
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:36,240
um

987
00:36:41,829 --> 00:36:39,680
pore is made up of uh inorganic

988
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:41,839
cofactors that in many ways mimic the

989
00:36:45,349 --> 00:36:43,200
structure

990
00:36:46,150 --> 00:36:45,359
of iron sulfur minerals

991
00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:46,160
and

992
00:36:52,069 --> 00:36:48,560
organic cofactors that are derived from

993
00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:52,079
nucleotides now that could easily be

994
00:36:57,030 --> 00:36:53,680
a coincidence but it's a very

995
00:37:00,870 --> 00:36:57,040
interesting lead and i i i would like um

996
00:37:05,589 --> 00:37:03,030
just picking up a question from the chat

997
00:37:07,829 --> 00:37:05,599
window michael um

998
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:07,839
so the the question being asked here is

999
00:37:13,510 --> 00:37:10,880
whether the window of the road map is

1000
00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:13,520
to guide research indefinitely

1001
00:37:16,310 --> 00:37:14,320
um

1002
00:37:19,030 --> 00:37:16,320
and update every five years or whether

1003
00:37:20,710 --> 00:37:19,040
we're mapping research ultimately what

1004
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:20,720
comes out of the workshop is it rap

1005
00:37:27,750 --> 00:37:23,520
mapping research for the next five years

1006
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:29,510
well so what i wrote in the chat window

1007
00:37:34,790 --> 00:37:32,640
is while it's true the

1008
00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:34,800
time window of this roadmap is expected

1009
00:37:37,910 --> 00:37:36,800
to be about a decade not five years a

1010
00:37:40,470 --> 00:37:37,920
decade

1011
00:37:43,109 --> 00:37:40,480
and yeah at five years out we will

1012
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:43,119
reassess and tweak it a little bit but

1013
00:37:47,430 --> 00:37:45,599
we're not expecting massive structural

1014
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:47,440
changes so what we say

1015
00:37:53,990 --> 00:37:51,760
in this roadmap will exist for 10 years

1016
00:37:55,990 --> 00:37:54,000
that being said mary and i nasa would

1017
00:37:59,589 --> 00:37:56,000
very much like this roadmap to be very

1018
00:38:01,349 --> 00:37:59,599
inspirational and aspirational and so

1019
00:38:03,430 --> 00:38:01,359
it's much much better

1020
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:03,440
in my mind than i think in nasa's mind

1021
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:06,000
to have a document that

1022
00:38:10,790 --> 00:38:08,880
thinks much bigger than 10 years than a

1023
00:38:12,550 --> 00:38:10,800
document that thinks much smaller than

1024
00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:12,560
10 years

1025
00:38:17,430 --> 00:38:14,880
once you have a bigger arc laid out it's

1026
00:38:19,589 --> 00:38:17,440
easier to go in and talk tactical

1027
00:38:20,710 --> 00:38:19,599
changes you know should we do this

1028
00:38:27,510 --> 00:38:20,720
experiment

1029
00:38:29,670 --> 00:38:27,520
do to then say all right well so we've

1030
00:38:31,349 --> 00:38:29,680
done these experiments now what does

1031
00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:31,359
that mean for us

1032
00:38:39,109 --> 00:38:37,190
maybe not a infinitely sustaining

1033
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:39,119
program but

1034
00:38:44,230 --> 00:38:40,960
document that will guide us for at least

1035
00:38:49,349 --> 00:38:47,109
okay thank you um

1036
00:38:52,069 --> 00:38:49,359
let's go to our last question though and

1037
00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:52,079
then um i'll open it up for for the

1038
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:54,960
audience to ask questions um

1039
00:38:58,829 --> 00:38:56,480
aaron

1040
00:38:59,430 --> 00:38:58,839
life evolving through a series

1041
00:39:02,710 --> 00:38:59,440
biopolymers thoughts

1042
00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:06,230
right um this is uh my favorite of the

1043
00:39:09,990 --> 00:39:08,160
four actually so thanks for choosing me

1044
00:39:13,270 --> 00:39:10,000
to go first um

1045
00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:13,280
so i i'm i think this is um we're

1046
00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:14,720
starting to piece together at least the

1047
00:39:18,470 --> 00:39:16,880
later what i would consider to be the

1048
00:39:20,230 --> 00:39:18,480
later stages

1049
00:39:22,470 --> 00:39:20,240
originally there might have been more

1050
00:39:23,670 --> 00:39:22,480
polymers like for example

1051
00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:23,680
um

1052
00:39:29,109 --> 00:39:26,160
it seems like it's easier to get

1053
00:39:30,390 --> 00:39:29,119
peptides than small rnas

1054
00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:30,400
um

1055
00:39:34,390 --> 00:39:32,079
chemically but uh

1056
00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:34,400
but it seems like rna was the original

1057
00:39:39,510 --> 00:39:36,400
or not the original sorry

1058
00:39:40,710 --> 00:39:39,520
at one stage rna was both the genetic

1059
00:39:42,230 --> 00:39:40,720
and functional

1060
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:42,240
molecule and might have used other

1061
00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:43,680
functions as well

1062
00:39:50,150 --> 00:39:47,280
uh but it was the chromosomal molecule

1063
00:39:52,950 --> 00:39:50,160
then began to encode proteins then then

1064
00:39:54,870 --> 00:39:52,960
uh proteins allowed uh

1065
00:39:57,510 --> 00:39:54,880
the life form to build

1066
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:57,520
a large dna chromosome i think this is

1067
00:40:01,270 --> 00:39:59,440
one of um it's not necessarily too

1068
00:40:03,510 --> 00:40:01,280
recent but it's one of the major

1069
00:40:06,150 --> 00:40:03,520
successes in the field of the last

1070
00:40:09,829 --> 00:40:06,160
uh couple decades and um

1071
00:40:13,270 --> 00:40:09,839
so the sort of work that

1072
00:40:14,390 --> 00:40:13,280
nick does looking at alternate um

1073
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:14,400
polymers

1074
00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:16,240
that could have preceded this system i

1075
00:40:19,030 --> 00:40:18,000
think is very important

1076
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:19,040
um

1077
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:21,760
i gather the work that uh andy ellington

1078
00:40:26,630 --> 00:40:25,040
does trying to expand this system um i

1079
00:40:28,710 --> 00:40:26,640
should see is very important and i'm

1080
00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:28,720
interested in what the selection

1081
00:40:32,069 --> 00:40:30,160
pressures are

1082
00:40:34,230 --> 00:40:32,079
to start increasing

1083
00:40:37,270 --> 00:40:34,240
something um

1084
00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:37,280
more start to remove

1085
00:40:39,670 --> 00:40:38,480
um

1086
00:40:52,710 --> 00:40:39,680
the

1087
00:40:54,390 --> 00:40:52,720
as in rnas and proteins um what what are

1088
00:40:57,430 --> 00:40:54,400
the selection pressures

1089
00:40:58,390 --> 00:40:57,440
that uh drive an organism to do that and

1090
00:41:00,470 --> 00:40:58,400
how

1091
00:41:02,470 --> 00:41:00,480
very early on

1092
00:41:05,109 --> 00:41:02,480
did something as

1093
00:41:07,030 --> 00:41:05,119
elaborate as the translation system

1094
00:41:09,510 --> 00:41:07,040
arise um

1095
00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:09,520
that allowed for that to take place so

1096
00:41:13,910 --> 00:41:11,040
those are those that's what i'm mostly

1097
00:41:16,150 --> 00:41:15,030
thank you

1098
00:41:18,550 --> 00:41:16,160
nick

1099
00:41:21,030 --> 00:41:18,560
what would you add to that

1100
00:41:23,670 --> 00:41:21,040
um yeah this is a question i like a lot

1101
00:41:26,470 --> 00:41:23,680
very near and dear to my heart for sure

1102
00:41:28,150 --> 00:41:26,480
um you know i'd add that uh

1103
00:41:31,109 --> 00:41:28,160
when i look at this i also like to think

1104
00:41:32,390 --> 00:41:31,119
about what what is the simplest polymers

1105
00:41:34,870 --> 00:41:32,400
you know this is just really kind of

1106
00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:34,880
reiterated some of what aaron said but

1107
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:38,000
you know from material availability from

1108
00:41:43,990 --> 00:41:40,319
chemical reaction what are the simplest

1109
00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:44,000
polymers that could have come about that

1110
00:41:48,390 --> 00:41:45,760
could have evolved into the ones that we

1111
00:41:50,230 --> 00:41:48,400
have today i think that that's a a

1112
00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:50,240
really really important question i think

1113
00:41:55,750 --> 00:41:51,040
that

1114
00:41:57,190 --> 00:41:55,760
spontaneous formation of a long

1115
00:41:59,829 --> 00:41:57,200
functional

1116
00:42:01,670 --> 00:41:59,839
even replicating rna is not likely so

1117
00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:01,680
there were stages that

1118
00:42:06,550 --> 00:42:04,480
built up to that and so i think that

1119
00:42:08,069 --> 00:42:06,560
connecting that to experimental systems

1120
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:08,079
and showing

1121
00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:11,760
assembly of rudimentary proto-rna is

1122
00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:14,720
important on the peptide side

1123
00:42:20,309 --> 00:42:16,880
it's still not even a solved problem how

1124
00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:20,319
do you make a lego peptide you know five

1125
00:42:24,470 --> 00:42:22,960
or six mars in good yield in a

1126
00:42:25,990 --> 00:42:24,480
prebiotics uh

1127
00:42:27,910 --> 00:42:26,000
system and so

1128
00:42:30,390 --> 00:42:27,920
maybe esters came before that can we

1129
00:42:33,270 --> 00:42:30,400
come up with robust chemistries that

1130
00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:33,280
give us kind of a foothold onto

1131
00:42:38,309 --> 00:42:35,359
informational polymers that then can

1132
00:42:40,870 --> 00:42:38,319
evolve into the ones we have today

1133
00:42:43,670 --> 00:42:40,880
and then yet this cooperation between

1134
00:42:45,270 --> 00:42:43,680
polymers the word cooperation didn't

1135
00:42:46,710 --> 00:42:45,280
make it uh

1136
00:42:47,589 --> 00:42:46,720
in there

1137
00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:47,599
but

1138
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:48,880
aaron talked about

1139
00:42:53,030 --> 00:42:50,960
you know kind of a series of one polymer

1140
00:42:54,790 --> 00:42:53,040
giving rise to the next i think that it

1141
00:42:57,109 --> 00:42:54,800
was important also to think about is

1142
00:42:59,109 --> 00:42:57,119
that we might not have had this kind of

1143
00:43:00,950 --> 00:42:59,119
serial development of the polymers in

1144
00:43:01,670 --> 00:43:00,960
fact i think there was a whole lot of

1145
00:43:04,150 --> 00:43:01,680
them

1146
00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:04,160
uh working along in parallel and

1147
00:43:08,470 --> 00:43:07,040
evolving and then major steps and trends

1148
00:43:10,710 --> 00:43:08,480
in evolution

1149
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:10,720
may have been when certain polymers

1150
00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:12,800
started to cooperate like peptides

1151
00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:14,720
nucleic acids nucleic acids with

1152
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:16,480
membranes membranes being another

1153
00:43:20,309 --> 00:43:17,520
polymer

1154
00:43:22,069 --> 00:43:20,319
of aliphatic molecules

1155
00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:22,079
um so that that's why i just add to that

1156
00:43:27,270 --> 00:43:24,400
i think it's it's captured in there

1157
00:43:29,270 --> 00:43:27,280
um but maybe it should be expanded a bit

1158
00:43:30,870 --> 00:43:29,280
a little bit more about you know uh

1159
00:43:33,670 --> 00:43:30,880
cooperation between the different types

1160
00:43:38,069 --> 00:43:35,670
really andy

1161
00:43:39,430 --> 00:43:38,079
yeah so i think that um we're sort of

1162
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:39,440
saying much the same thing except

1163
00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:41,040
whether or not we have a historical

1164
00:43:44,630 --> 00:43:42,240
focus so

1165
00:43:45,670 --> 00:43:44,640
what kind of alphabets or chemistries we

1166
00:43:47,270 --> 00:43:45,680
have are important what the

1167
00:43:49,270 --> 00:43:47,280
potentialities of those alphabets or

1168
00:43:51,510 --> 00:43:49,280
chemistry are is important the

1169
00:43:53,510 --> 00:43:51,520
transitions between them is important we

1170
00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:53,520
either have a timeline that goes into

1171
00:43:57,109 --> 00:43:55,280
the past and is constrained by

1172
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:57,119
terrestrial

1173
00:44:01,349 --> 00:43:59,200
you know boundary conditions or we have

1174
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:01,359
multiple timelines that are occurring

1175
00:44:06,470 --> 00:44:04,000
elsewhere or that go into the future and

1176
00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:06,480
i'm more in favor of the of the broader

1177
00:44:12,550 --> 00:44:09,680
view but it seems like we do sort of

1178
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:12,560
speak about the same questions um

1179
00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:14,160
you know the transitions are interesting

1180
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:16,160
because i think even as george pointed

1181
00:44:21,510 --> 00:44:18,160
out in chat there that that you know the

1182
00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:21,520
ribosome sort of constrains our thinking

1183
00:44:24,790 --> 00:44:23,680
in a way the ribosome freaks me out i

1184
00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:24,800
mean i just don't even like to think

1185
00:44:30,309 --> 00:44:28,400
about it translation is is just weird um

1186
00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:30,319
and yet it occurred and it occurred in

1187
00:44:35,829 --> 00:44:33,599
some context and maybe you know 20

1188
00:44:37,750 --> 00:44:35,839
billion years from now you know somebody

1189
00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:37,760
you know the the nick hud of alpha

1190
00:44:41,510 --> 00:44:39,440
centauri will be arguing about why we

1191
00:44:43,910 --> 00:44:41,520
have these you know silicon organic

1192
00:44:46,309 --> 00:44:43,920
things um where the organic parts are

1193
00:44:47,750 --> 00:44:46,319
this weird heterocyclic compound and

1194
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:47,760
where did that come from i mean i can

1195
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:49,440
imagine you know further transitions in

1196
00:44:53,670 --> 00:44:51,920
in our own evolution where

1197
00:44:55,510 --> 00:44:53,680
it would be hard to look backwards and

1198
00:44:57,270 --> 00:44:55,520
see how it happened so i just sort of

1199
00:44:59,270 --> 00:44:57,280
disregard translation because it's just

1200
00:45:01,190 --> 00:44:59,280
too weird and i don't think i'm ever

1201
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:01,200
ever ever going to know enough to figure

1202
00:45:06,309 --> 00:45:04,480
out anything about where it came from so

1203
00:45:08,950 --> 00:45:06,319
you know these transitions can be as

1204
00:45:12,390 --> 00:45:08,960
stark as translation or as silicon

1205
00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:12,400
organic you know chimeras or they can be

1206
00:45:16,870 --> 00:45:15,040
um you know milder transitions you know

1207
00:45:20,550 --> 00:45:16,880
uh pna to

1208
00:45:22,710 --> 00:45:20,560
to dna or ester to phosphate or what or

1209
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:22,720
whatever and

1210
00:45:26,870 --> 00:45:24,960
you know these are these are worth these

1211
00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:26,880
are all worth studying i think that we

1212
00:45:29,270 --> 00:45:28,400
should just study them in a context

1213
00:45:31,829 --> 00:45:29,280
where

1214
00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:31,839
we have a common language and a common

1215
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:33,280
way to compare

1216
00:45:36,069 --> 00:45:34,720
what it is we're trying to accomplish i

1217
00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:36,079
think that's more than anything what i'd

1218
00:45:39,030 --> 00:45:37,200
like to come from some of these

1219
00:45:40,710 --> 00:45:39,040
discussions is that we can speak

1220
00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:40,720
together as a community

1221
00:45:45,670 --> 00:45:41,599
and

1222
00:45:50,069 --> 00:45:45,680
ideas

1223
00:45:55,190 --> 00:45:52,710
okay well at that

1224
00:45:57,589 --> 00:45:55,200
let me um let me pick up on the idea of

1225
00:46:00,069 --> 00:45:57,599
speaking as a community

1226
00:46:01,829 --> 00:46:00,079
we have a few minutes left on this

1227
00:46:04,150 --> 00:46:01,839
session and i'm i'm conscious that i

1228
00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:04,160
don't want to overrun because people

1229
00:46:09,430 --> 00:46:07,280
have given us their time um if anyone

1230
00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:09,440
wants to ask a question

1231
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:11,040
mike is going to

1232
00:46:15,270 --> 00:46:12,960
open all the mics

1233
00:46:17,190 --> 00:46:15,280
at the top of your screen over here

1234
00:46:19,190 --> 00:46:17,200
online you'll find a little icon of the

1235
00:46:21,270 --> 00:46:19,200
person with their hand held up and it

1236
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:21,280
seemed to work quite well last time if

1237
00:46:26,309 --> 00:46:24,240
you want to ask a question make a point

1238
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:26,319
just click on that and your name will

1239
00:46:28,470 --> 00:46:27,680
pop to the top of the list and then

1240
00:46:34,470 --> 00:46:28,480
we'll

1241
00:46:40,309 --> 00:46:36,550
we encourage people to vehemently

1242
00:47:07,430 --> 00:46:44,309
so taking the broad topic of prebiotics

1243
00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:09,670
in that case if the if the panelists

1244
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:12,720
have covered the subject in such perfect

1245
00:47:15,190 --> 00:47:13,920
detail

1246
00:47:21,109 --> 00:47:15,200
um

1247
00:47:30,069 --> 00:47:21,119
the uh

1248
00:47:33,430 --> 00:47:31,030
great

1249
00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:33,440
it's possible that uh that some of you

1250
00:47:37,910 --> 00:47:35,839
may not be registered on the website or

1251
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:37,920
may not even know about it if you've

1252
00:47:41,349 --> 00:47:39,200
discovered about this webinar through

1253
00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:41,359
another route so i just wanted to show

1254
00:47:46,109 --> 00:47:44,160
you very briefly yeah thank you the

1255
00:47:47,990 --> 00:47:46,119
website address

1256
00:47:51,030 --> 00:47:48,000
astrobiologyfuture.org and then mike if

1257
00:47:53,030 --> 00:47:51,040
you scroll down ever so slightly

1258
00:47:56,069 --> 00:47:53,040
um you'll see that in the middle of the

1259
00:47:59,349 --> 00:47:56,079
screen now it says share your thoughts

1260
00:48:01,030 --> 00:47:59,359
and just below that um it says click on

1261
00:48:04,230 --> 00:48:01,040
this link so i'm just going to show you

1262
00:48:07,670 --> 00:48:04,240
if we click there for a moment

1263
00:48:10,630 --> 00:48:07,680
what we have now is we've set up

1264
00:48:14,069 --> 00:48:10,640
three uh discussion areas the advanced

1265
00:48:16,710 --> 00:48:14,079
life one is for our three o'clock east

1266
00:48:19,670 --> 00:48:16,720
coast session coming up soon do not miss

1267
00:48:22,069 --> 00:48:19,680
it um but further down we've got our

1268
00:48:24,150 --> 00:48:22,079
prebiotic life one and at the moment

1269
00:48:26,230 --> 00:48:24,160
we've just got two sections there ideas

1270
00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:26,240
and questions you'll see that for the

1271
00:48:30,549 --> 00:48:28,880
solar system exploration one above we

1272
00:48:32,950 --> 00:48:30,559
also have the transcript from the

1273
00:48:35,430 --> 00:48:32,960
meeting chat and this will be added in

1274
00:48:39,910 --> 00:48:35,440
here as well but what i'd like to do is

1275
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:39,920
to encourage people to uh to go over to

1276
00:48:43,270 --> 00:48:41,839
the site go to the prebiotic live

1277
00:48:45,190 --> 00:48:43,280
section and particularly on the

1278
00:48:46,390 --> 00:48:45,200
questions there there is a larger

1279
00:48:48,390 --> 00:48:46,400
collection of questions and it's

1280
00:48:51,430 --> 00:48:48,400
actually going to be updated

1281
00:48:52,710 --> 00:48:51,440
shortly um i just got a couple more from

1282
00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:52,720
the panelists

1283
00:48:57,349 --> 00:48:55,760
um and please go and add your thoughts

1284
00:48:59,829 --> 00:48:57,359
on that now i can see someone has

1285
00:49:01,030 --> 00:48:59,839
already um

1286
00:49:03,109 --> 00:49:01,040
so

1287
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:03,119
that's what we're we're going to do i

1288
00:49:07,349 --> 00:49:04,480
did see one

1289
00:49:08,870 --> 00:49:07,359
question appearing in the oh yes android

1290
00:49:11,990 --> 00:49:08,880
about um

1291
00:49:14,790 --> 00:49:12,000
obviously several while i was talking

1292
00:49:18,069 --> 00:49:14,800
all right let me um let me make a

1293
00:49:20,630 --> 00:49:18,079
suggestion in that case uh if there is a

1294
00:49:21,670 --> 00:49:20,640
question here that you want to have

1295
00:49:25,270 --> 00:49:21,680
covered

1296
00:49:27,750 --> 00:49:25,280
and our our panelists are going to be um

1297
00:49:30,309 --> 00:49:27,760
engaged with the science next week or so

1298
00:49:33,030 --> 00:49:30,319
feel free to add your own question in

1299
00:49:34,710 --> 00:49:33,040
into the prebiotic and when you're doing

1300
00:49:36,309 --> 00:49:34,720
that please take the time to add your

1301
00:49:38,870 --> 00:49:36,319
thoughts to this it really is very

1302
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:38,880
important to help nasa shape their

1303
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:42,319
workshop and the resulting roadmap

1304
00:49:47,430 --> 00:49:44,640
uh and with that

1305
00:49:49,270 --> 00:49:47,440
i think we will draw it to an end unless

1306
00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:49,280
anyone wants to stick a hand in the air

1307
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:51,760
in their last moment

1308
00:49:55,109 --> 00:49:53,040
and

1309
00:49:57,349 --> 00:49:55,119
mike mike what is what is advanced life

1310
00:49:58,790 --> 00:49:57,359
have we inadvertently tread upon your

1311
00:50:00,309 --> 00:49:58,800
other session i don't i don't quite

1312
00:50:02,950 --> 00:50:00,319
understand the distinction

1313
00:50:05,829 --> 00:50:02,960
oh sorry yeah um we tend to use

1314
00:50:07,750 --> 00:50:05,839
evolution of advanced life to talk about

1315
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:07,760
a couple of things

1316
00:50:11,829 --> 00:50:09,520
the title comes from looking at the

1317
00:50:14,630 --> 00:50:11,839
transition from unicellular life to

1318
00:50:17,190 --> 00:50:14,640
multicellular life and all of the

1319
00:50:18,870 --> 00:50:17,200
evolutionary changes that occurred in

1320
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:18,880
that process

1321
00:50:22,630 --> 00:50:20,720
we also in there tend to include the

1322
00:50:25,589 --> 00:50:22,640
response of

1323
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:25,599
the causes and responses of ecosystems

1324
00:50:30,150 --> 00:50:26,880
to

1325
00:50:32,470 --> 00:50:30,160
uh um mass extinction events impact

1326
00:50:35,030 --> 00:50:32,480
flood volcanism that kind of thing

1327
00:50:36,630 --> 00:50:35,040
so it's on the it sort of squishes

1328
00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:36,640
together um

1329
00:50:41,829 --> 00:50:38,800
issues in developmental evolutionary

1330
00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:41,839
biology and issues in sort of macro

1331
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:44,480
evolutionary paleontology

1332
00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:46,559
okay so our various discussions of you

1333
00:50:50,309 --> 00:50:48,720
know the role of chemistry and either

1334
00:50:51,990 --> 00:50:50,319
origins or the expansion of

1335
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:52,000
functionality are are perfectly

1336
00:50:56,710 --> 00:50:54,480
legitimate under the prebiotic banner

1337
00:50:58,870 --> 00:50:56,720
ab absolutely and they're probably more

1338
00:50:59,910 --> 00:50:58,880
easily tackled they don't know it's a

1339
00:51:03,430 --> 00:50:59,920
question where they're more easily

1340
00:51:05,270 --> 00:51:03,440
tackled in the prebiotic mildew or in

1341
00:51:06,950 --> 00:51:05,280
one or in the advanced life familiar

1342
00:51:09,190 --> 00:51:06,960
where you've already got a fairly

1343
00:51:11,910 --> 00:51:09,200
complex system of genetic control

1344
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:11,920
already established

1345
00:51:15,589 --> 00:51:14,000
i i'd be concerned that some of the

1346
00:51:17,349 --> 00:51:15,599
fundamental issues would fall through

1347
00:51:18,230 --> 00:51:17,359
the cracks

1348
00:51:20,150 --> 00:51:18,240
so

1349
00:51:26,230 --> 00:51:20,160
i would like to err on the side of

1350
00:51:32,069 --> 00:51:29,750
i i didn't mean to imply that uh um

1351
00:51:32,870 --> 00:51:32,079
robotic evolution was simple

1352
00:51:34,230 --> 00:51:32,880
um

1353
00:51:36,390 --> 00:51:34,240
just that we tend to think of of

1354
00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:36,400
unicellular life and multicellular life

1355
00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:38,400
and historically multicellular life

1356
00:51:41,990 --> 00:51:40,160
animals have been considered advanced

1357
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:42,000
life and so that's where we grab the

1358
00:51:45,430 --> 00:51:43,839
words if you think of a better title i'd

1359
00:51:47,270 --> 00:51:45,440
be happy to accept

1360
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:47,280
honestly sorry i was actually referring

1361
00:51:50,790 --> 00:51:48,880
to next week's

1362
00:51:52,069 --> 00:51:50,800
discussion on early evolution which

1363
00:51:53,270 --> 00:51:52,079
probably will have a lot of problems

1364
00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:53,280
here

1365
00:51:56,549 --> 00:51:54,960
oh the early evolution generally means

1366
00:51:57,430 --> 00:51:56,559
once you've got a living system what

1367
00:51:59,670 --> 00:51:57,440
happens

1368
00:52:01,750 --> 00:51:59,680
okay that's kind of arbitrarily where we

1369
00:52:04,470 --> 00:52:01,760
draw the the border

1370
00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:04,480
um but my comment stands i if you have

1371
00:52:09,510 --> 00:52:06,400
better titles for these things i would

1372
00:52:14,309 --> 00:52:12,230
okay just two points uh damien had

1373
00:52:16,309 --> 00:52:14,319
raised his hand just while i was talking

1374
00:52:17,750 --> 00:52:16,319
he he's added the question into the chat

1375
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:17,760
window and i can see that andy's

1376
00:52:22,710 --> 00:52:20,720
responded but just for aaron and nick so

1377
00:52:25,190 --> 00:52:22,720
he's asking um the panel talked a bit

1378
00:52:27,910 --> 00:52:25,200
about replicators in general any general

1379
00:52:30,470 --> 00:52:27,920
model is defined by a set of constraints

1380
00:52:31,829 --> 00:52:30,480
um and what the model does not model

1381
00:52:37,349 --> 00:52:31,839
what would the panelists see as the

1382
00:52:41,430 --> 00:52:38,710
yeah i think so

1383
00:52:45,109 --> 00:52:43,510
um yeah so i i think that that's

1384
00:52:47,670 --> 00:52:45,119
actually a really good point because

1385
00:52:48,470 --> 00:52:47,680
this is uh it goes back to um i think

1386
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:48,480
that

1387
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:52,079
uh andy and my definition of of these

1388
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:54,000
systems that he was calling at creators

1389
00:52:57,990 --> 00:52:56,160
are a bit different and he says there

1390
00:53:00,230 --> 00:52:58,000
isn't an example

1391
00:53:02,710 --> 00:53:00,240
of those out there and i'll just throw

1392
00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:02,720
out you know an example i see

1393
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:05,760
in a sense is the the propagation of

1394
00:53:10,309 --> 00:53:08,400
peptides that form amyloid is all over

1395
00:53:13,109 --> 00:53:10,319
the scientific literature

1396
00:53:16,790 --> 00:53:13,119
and you know some of the models for why

1397
00:53:19,589 --> 00:53:16,800
do these uh build up is that the

1398
00:53:21,349 --> 00:53:19,599
proteases cannot cleave up peptides in

1399
00:53:22,470 --> 00:53:21,359
the amyloids as well as they can free

1400
00:53:23,430 --> 00:53:22,480
peptides

1401
00:53:24,870 --> 00:53:23,440
and so

1402
00:53:26,309 --> 00:53:24,880
when andy talks about a creator it

1403
00:53:27,589 --> 00:53:26,319
sounds like he's talking about one

1404
00:53:29,990 --> 00:53:27,599
simple

1405
00:53:31,829 --> 00:53:30,000
single molecule entity and i'm talking

1406
00:53:33,990 --> 00:53:31,839
about them coming together and doing

1407
00:53:36,390 --> 00:53:34,000
something that promotes their own

1408
00:53:37,910 --> 00:53:36,400
survival and that's a you know a type of

1409
00:53:39,030 --> 00:53:37,920
self-selection

1410
00:53:40,790 --> 00:53:39,040
and so

1411
00:53:43,510 --> 00:53:40,800
you know that's where with respect to

1412
00:53:45,589 --> 00:53:43,520
replicator pretty much everybody has you

1413
00:53:47,430 --> 00:53:45,599
know in the modeling said

1414
00:53:49,829 --> 00:53:47,440
molly field gives rise to a copy of

1415
00:53:51,750 --> 00:53:49,839
itself well okay that's

1416
00:53:54,790 --> 00:53:51,760
that's you know strictly speaking that's

1417
00:53:57,990 --> 00:53:54,800
a replication but we could also have

1418
00:54:01,190 --> 00:53:58,000
a broader sense of it where

1419
00:54:04,309 --> 00:54:01,200
oligos are being produced and then

1420
00:54:07,750 --> 00:54:04,319
by their association they are then

1421
00:54:09,990 --> 00:54:07,760
living on right a longer time and that's

1422
00:54:12,069 --> 00:54:10,000
a selection of two and so that's a

1423
00:54:13,589 --> 00:54:12,079
little broader definition perhaps of

1424
00:54:16,950 --> 00:54:13,599
replication

1425
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:21,030
that's a great example

1426
00:54:25,829 --> 00:54:22,309
sorry go ahead

1427
00:54:29,349 --> 00:54:25,839
as i was just going to say i agree uh

1428
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:29,359
with both um nick and andy and it only

1429
00:54:35,670 --> 00:54:32,240
had that for me it is more important

1430
00:54:38,390 --> 00:54:35,680
that it's capable of um uh evolving in a

1431
00:54:44,630 --> 00:54:38,400
manner that we would recognize uh as

1432
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:47,750
okay i am going to draw it to a close

1433
00:54:52,630 --> 00:54:50,240
now but i just wanted to address

1434
00:54:55,190 --> 00:54:52,640
aaron's question about how does the

1435
00:54:57,829 --> 00:54:55,200
information from the discussion and the

1436
00:54:59,349 --> 00:54:57,839
chat windows feed into the roadmap

1437
00:55:02,470 --> 00:54:59,359
workshop

1438
00:55:06,789 --> 00:55:02,480
uh and the answer is that we're using

1439
00:55:09,589 --> 00:55:06,799
these webinars and the website to um to

1440
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:09,599
broaden the the discussion in uh there's

1441
00:55:15,510 --> 00:55:11,920
a more diverse community to give

1442
00:55:17,510 --> 00:55:15,520
insights to the questions that might be

1443
00:55:19,349 --> 00:55:17,520
part of the road mapping workshop so

1444
00:55:21,670 --> 00:55:19,359
really at this moment all we're doing is

1445
00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:21,680
data gathering in order to allow us to

1446
00:55:27,270 --> 00:55:24,480
get together for for three ish days to

1447
00:55:29,750 --> 00:55:27,280
have the academic debate um

1448
00:55:33,829 --> 00:55:29,760
so that's the purpose of

1449
00:55:34,950 --> 00:55:33,839
both the webinars and the website

1450
00:55:37,109 --> 00:55:34,960
um

1451
00:55:39,910 --> 00:55:37,119
so with that thank you very much

1452
00:55:42,150 --> 00:55:39,920
everyone um i will see some of you i

1453
00:55:44,390 --> 00:55:42,160
hope possibly all of you in uh an hour